Archaeology of the New Testament

Cypress said:
I've read more Ehrman than anyone on this board.
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Maybe there's a different Bart Ehrman you're reading.
Cypress said:
If you are only reading Ehrman and other atheists, you are selecting material that you already know beforehand will only support your preconceived opinions. You obviously aren't reading alternative sources that will challenge your preconceived beliefs.
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Says the person who cherry-picked one quote from Ehrman and ignored his clear and well supported opinion about the Gospels.
Cypress said:
That's confirmation bias.
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Yes.
Cypress said:
Doesn't matter what he believes. As an academic it only matters what he can prove, or convincingly demonstrate.
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See above post regarding your cherry-picking.
Cypress said:
Ehrman is a committed atheist who expresses his opinions and biases on podcasts and blogs.

But when he's writing in a peer reviewed academic context, he is professionally obligated to be balanced and fair minded. He's very good at being balanced when he has guard rails of scholarly academic standards to adhere to.
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Then you should have no problem finding other support, from him, that shows he's inclined toward believing the Gospels were written by who the books say they were and that those people were the ones close to Jesus/Paul.
Cypress said:
That is precisely why I gave you a quote of his out of an academic context.
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It was from one of his publicly sold book, not an academic book.
Cypress said:
He does think ultimately that the gospel authors are anonymous, but I don't think he does a convincing job of dismissing evidence pointing to the gospel authors as they come to us from tradition.
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That's because you want to believe in Christianity and the Bible.
 
Guno צְבִי said:

Paul's famous revelation may have been 'caused by epileptic fit', say scientists​

Brite lights and loud sounds

Rather than hearing God talking to him, scientists in Israel have suggested Saint Paul’s revelation could have been brought about by an epileptic seizure,

www.independent.co.uk

Saint Paul may have been having a fit not hearing God

Researchers at Hadassah Medical Centre have scanned the brain of a man during a seizure while he also had visions of God
www.independent.co.uk www.independent.co.uk
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Or not!
 
Cypress said:
Difficult to explain why Paul would have given up a comfortable career as a Pharisee because of an epileptic seizure for a life where he constantly faced risk, oppression, beatings, lashings, stonings, pirates, shipwrecks, imprisonment, execution.
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So what happened? Is it possible he saw a vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus, exactly as Scripture says!
 
ZenMode said:
We've been through this several times....

First, if it's true that Jesus disciples believed they saw Jesus after his death, that doesn't mean they actually saw him after his death.

Second, since the gospel writers, who lived in other countries and very likely never met the disciples or met anyone who met any who met anyone who met a disciple, they're either a) working off of 10th hand information or simply making up things that sound good, like Matthew made up the story of the virgin birth because he wanted Jesus birth to fulfill OT prophecy.

I've never said they "lied their asses off". I did say, because there's reasons to believe it, they they made up some events or the details of some events.

Matthew misunderstood an OT verse and as a result, made up a story about Mary being a virgin. The story about the census was very likely made up.

I can go on and on.....
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Atheists always think they know all about what they don't believe in!
 
Cypress said:
I've read more Ehrman than anyone on this board.

If you are only reading Ehrman and other atheists, you are selecting material that you already know beforehand will only support your preconceived opinions. You obviously aren't reading alternative sources that will challenge your preconceived beliefs.

That's confirmation bias.


Doesn't matter what he believes. As an academic it only matters what he can prove, or convincingly demonstrate.

Ehrman is a committed atheist who expresses his opinions and biases on podcasts and blogs.

But when he's writing in a peer reviewed academic context, he is professionally obligated to be balanced and fair minded. He's very good at being balanced when he has guard rails of scholarly academic standards to adhere to.


That is precisely why I gave you a quote of his out of an academic context. He does think ultimately that the gospel authors are anonymous, but I don't think he does a convincing job of dismissing evidence pointing to the gospel authors as they come to us from tradition.
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I wouldn't brag about getting theology from Ehrman or any other atheist! Thing about Scriptures is to really ,I mean really comprehend it ,you need the Holy Spirit!
 
Melchizedek=Tecumseh said:
So what happened? Is it possible he saw a vision of Jesus on the road to Damascus, exactly as Scripture says!
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To me, the most reasonable explanation for giving up a comfortable and prestigious life as a Pharisee for a life of beatings, lashings, shipwrecks, pirates, imprisonment is that he genuinely believed he had had some kind of a radical epiphany, vision, or rapture.

The explanations that he just had an epileptic seizure, or that he thought he would acquire power, wealth, and chicks really don't add up.
 
Cypress said:
To me, the most reasonable explanation for giving up a comfortable and prestigious life as a Pharisee for a life of beatings, lashings, shipwrecks, pirates, imprisonment is that he genuinely believed he had had some kind of a radical epiphany, vision, or rapture.
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Yep, religion does odd things to people. Three-quarters of the 9/11 terrorists had degrees. One, Mohammed Atta, was working on his PhD.

The “underwear bomber,” Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, was the son of a wealthy Nigerian banker and was studying at the prestigious University College London at the time of his bombing attempt in 2009.

Some people after hearing Marshall Applewhite talk, left their lives/families/jobs and followed him to their eventual death.
 
Cypress said:
To me, the most reasonable explanation for giving up a comfortable and prestigious life as a Pharisee for a life of beatings, lashings, shipwrecks, pirates, imprisonment is that he genuinely believed he had had some kind of a radical epiphany, vision, or rapture.

The explanations that he just had an epileptic seizure, or that he thought he would acquire power, wealth, and chicks really don't add up.
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wow.

this proves Christianity is the one true faith.

how long have you been sitting on this information?
 
ZenMode said:
Maybe there's a different Bart Ehrman you're reading.
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I gave you the quote.
ZenMode said:
Says the person who cherry-picked one quote from Ehrman and ignored his clear and well supported opinion about the Gospels.
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Ehrman says since nobody wrote their name on the gospels, they are anonymous, and we can't prove who wrote them.

He never said we can't use circumstantial evidence and logical inference to make educated guesses about the authors, which is exactly what I have done.
ZenMode said:
Yes.

See above post regarding your cherry-picking.
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You haven't provided a shred of evidence for your claim that the gospels were written by random obscure people who were ten steps removed from anyone associated with the original apostles.

Hollering that they're written in Greek isn't even a real argument.

For God's sake man, you didn't even know Luke was not a companion of Jesus and never even met the man.
ZenMode said:
Then you should have no problem finding other support, from him, that shows he's inclined toward believing the Gospels were written by who the books say they were and that those people were the ones close to Jesus/Paul.
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I never claimed Ehrman believes we are certain about who the gospel authors are. Back track this thread to familiarize yourself with what I really wrote.

I provided multiple lines of evidence about how we can make reasonably good inferences about who the authors were. My reasoning does not totally rely on Ehrmam.
ZenMode said:
It was from one of his publicly sold book, not an academic book.

That's because you want to believe in Christianity and the Bible.
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Right, Ehrman wrote that you have to take seriously the claims of early church bishops about the gospel authors, although they don't prove anything and he himself is not inclined to buy it.

80 percent of everything I've written in this thread is consistent with what Ehrman has written or said. He is a valuable resource.

But he is not a prophet who has all the correct answers.

I'm not like you. I don't self select sources that I already know beforehand are already to going to agree with my preconceived beliefs. That's a terrible way to learn. Ehrman has great arguments, but other religious scholars sometimes have better arguments than him.
 
ZenMode said:
Yep, religion does odd things to people. Three-quarters of the 9/11 terrorists had degrees. One, Mohammed Atta, was working on his PhD.
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Genuine believers are not liars, even if they commit crimes for their beliefs.

You tried to claim early church leaders like Paul were liars who only proselytized to get power, wealth, and chicks.

Now you're claiming they were genuine in their belief, just mistaken about the truth.

Make up your mind about which argument you want to use, and don't wander all over the map.
ZenMode said:
The “underwear bomber,” Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, was the son of a wealthy Nigerian banker and was studying at the prestigious University College London at the time of his bombing attempt in 2009.

Some people after hearing Marshall Applewhite talk, left their lives/families/jobs and followed him to their eventual death.
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Genuine believers are not liars, even if they commit crimes for their beliefs.

You tried to claim early church leaders like Paul were liars who only proselytized to get power, wealth, and chicks.

Now you're claiming they were genuine in their belief, just mistaken about the truth.

Make up your mind about which argument you want to use, and don't wander all over the map.
 
Cypress said:
Genuine believers are not liars, even if they commit crimes for their beliefs.
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Right, but you can also be a liar without committing crimes.
Cypress said:
You tried to claim early church leaders like Paul were liars who only proselytized to get power, wealth, and chicks.
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I said no such thing. I said they made things up to further their cause and/or give legitimacy to their beliefs. For example, claiming that a book was written by Mark when there's no reason to believe it was.
Cypress said:
Now you're claiming they were genuine in their belief, just mistaken about the truth.
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Not exactly.
Cypress said:
Make up your mind about which argument you want to use, and don't wander all over the map.

Genuine believers are not liars, even if they commit crimes for their beliefs.

You tried to claim early church leaders like Paul were liars who only proselytized to get power, wealth, and chicks.

Now you're claiming they were genuine in their belief, just mistaken about the truth.

Make up your mind about which argument you want to use, and don't wander all over the map.
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So much gaslighting and hyperbole.
 
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