What happens if Biden gets his $15 minimum wage passed?

T. A. Gardner said:
This is clearly wrong. If the cost of labor is above the productivity of that labor then employers will either automate, not do whatever it is at all, or minimize their doing it to the maximum extent possible. We see that clearly in fast food where the impetus is to automate the process and eliminate employees altogether. In construction it is done by mechanizing. No, there is no need for ditch diggers anymore. You use a machine with one operator doing it.

Many otherwise entry level jobs now require skills. Again in construction, you have to have a certificate from a trade school to get hired or be able to demonstrate years of experience in that trade. Food handlers now have to get certified on health requirements (food handler card) before being hired. Bartenders, pet groomers, all sorts of low end jobs now require previous training and certification before you can get hired. That will only increase with higher wages. An employer wants to know for sure before you get hired that you can do the job and have a successful track record in doing it.

Making college "tuition free" just shifts the cost onto taxpayers. That's hardly fair. Government created the mess and you want government to make it bigger.

A higher minimum wage does not mean more competition for workers. It means workers will have to compete harder for available jobs. It will be the employer who gets to pick and choose who they take rather then being a "seller's market" where cheap labor means more entry level jobs being available.

Another way around it for some employers is to switch to using contractors instead. That is, they hire you as a contract employee for a fixed term and amount of money. Then your wage is on you, not the company you work for. A variant of that already in place is the "temp service." Here the company hires you from the temp service you are with. They pay the temp service and the temp service pays you. You don't work out, you're gone the next day and it's someone else's turn to try for the job. You work out after say 90 days, the company offers you a position doing what you're already doing.

Higher wages drive much of this because employers have greater incentive to make sure that the employee they hire is going to work out for them where low wages there is less risk from hiring someone who's unfit to do the job.
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It is pretty bad when you have to explain to Democrats what jobs really are. Kind of shows clearly who has none on this board.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
This is clearly wrong. If the cost of labor is above the productivity of that labor then employers will either automate, not do whatever it is at all, or minimize their doing it to the maximum extent possible. We see that clearly in fast food where the impetus is to automate the process and eliminate employees altogether. In construction it is done by mechanizing. No, there is no need for ditch diggers anymore. You use a machine with one operator doing it.

Many otherwise entry level jobs now require skills. Again in construction, you have to have a certificate from a trade school to get hired or be able to demonstrate years of experience in that trade. Food handlers now have to get certified on health requirements (food handler card) before being hired. Bartenders, pet groomers, all sorts of low end jobs now require previous training and certification before you can get hired. That will only increase with higher wages. An employer wants to know for sure before you get hired that you can do the job and have a successful track record in doing it.

Making college "tuition free" just shifts the cost onto taxpayers. That's hardly fair. Government created the mess and you want government to make it bigger.

A higher minimum wage does not mean more competition for workers. It means workers will have to compete harder for available jobs. It will be the employer who gets to pick and choose who they take rather then being a "seller's market" where cheap labor means more entry level jobs being available.

Another way around it for some employers is to switch to using contractors instead. That is, they hire you as a contract employee for a fixed term and amount of money. Then your wage is on you, not the company you work for. A variant of that already in place is the "temp service." Here the company hires you from the temp service you are with. They pay the temp service and the temp service pays you. You don't work out, you're gone the next day and it's someone else's turn to try for the job. You work out after say 90 days, the company offers you a position doing what you're already doing.

Higher wages drive much of this because employers have greater incentive to make sure that the employee they hire is going to work out for them where low wages there is less risk from hiring someone who's unfit to do the job.
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ROTFLFMAO!!!! What is the 'productivity' value of a worker? There is no such thing. Once again, you lack the vocabulary to intelligently discuss economics, and apparently to discuss business. ENTRY LEVEL JOBS are by definition jobs that require no experience in the field. Most minimum wage jobs don't even require a high school diploma, much less a trade school.

You think you can get around this by using contractors? Once again, you crack me up. Did you think a temporary worker isn't subject to minimum wage laws? You do realize that minimum wage is exactly that..... MINIMUM WAGE. You don't get to pick and choose who you pay minimum wage to. So your idea that somehow a minimum wage job will now have a higher standard is laughable. How do you think McDonalds is going to sell burgers? By extensively interviewing their fry cooks? You are just completely wrong, and completely out of your league in this discussion. Almost everything you say is wrong. It's sublime.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
And we move on to the Type 2 ad hominem...

Aside from that, how do I refute a logical fallacy other than by pointing it out?
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You didn't. You attempted to LABEL it without explaining how it is a fallacy. Because you don't know. You lack the chops.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
Minimum wage can kill jobs and even businesses. Those faced with marginal ROI are the most likely. But it has other affects too.
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Why wouldn't employers simply pass costs on to the consumer like they do for everything else they can get away with. That argument seems disingenuous when dealing with statutory wage laws since they usually affect everyone within a State or the federal Union.
 
Concart said:
ROTFLFMAO!!!! What is the 'productivity' value of a worker? There is no such thing. Once again, you lack the vocabulary to intelligently discuss economics, and apparently to discuss business. ENTRY LEVEL JOBS are by definition jobs that require no experience in the field. Most minimum wage jobs don't even require a high school diploma, much less a trade school.

You think you can get around this by using contractors? Once again, you crack me up. Did you think a temporary worker isn't subject to minimum wage laws? You do realize that minimum wage is exactly that..... MINIMUM WAGE. You don't get to pick and choose who you pay minimum wage to. So your idea that somehow a minimum wage job will now have a higher standard is laughable. How do you think McDonalds is going to sell burgers? By extensively interviewing their fry cooks? You are just completely wrong, and completely out of your league in this discussion. Almost everything you say is wrong. It's sublime.
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You know nothing about economics or anything for that matter. Just try to bullshit your way through things. Labor productivity certainly is a real thing. So is employee productivity. That is economics 101 Mr. "has a masters in economics". LMAO!
 
Legion said:
Based on what? Your wishful thinking?

And the most homeless persons, the most poverty, and the most people dependent on government assistance than any other state in the US, despite having raided the minimum wage each year since 2017.

Calipornia’s persistently high housing costs drive almost 2 million people into poverty, with 17.2% of Calipornians in poverty, the nation’s highest, compared to 12.5% nationally.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckdevore/2020/09/17/report-shows-big-declines-in-poverty-in-2019-but-california-leads-the-nation--in-poverty--with-austin-texas-trying-hard-to-catch-up/?sh=6ae2f10b7897

For the past 10 years, Calipornia has had the nation’s highest poverty rate as determined by the Supplemental Poverty Measure.

https://www.census.gov/library/publications.html

I don't recall stating that "the dollar menu won't double even if the minimum wage does".
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Based on marginal propensity to spend and consume. The Poor tend to spend most of their income sooner rather than later.

It is a reason why the minimum wage needs to keep up with inflation.

And yet, California has the largest economy in the Union even with the minimum wage having stagnated for around a decade.
 
Legion said:
All data is necessarily a lagging indicator. Perhaps that's why you prefer wishful thinking.

Cite an example of a boost in minimum wages driving economic improvement.
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Not by itself; it is the upward pressure on wages that helps. A higher minimum wage simply helps minimum wage labor better afford our first world economy and helps create that demand and generates greater tax revenue. From one perspective, a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage generates over nine times more federal income tax revenue than does someone making the current minimum wage, plus the additional general tax revenue generated by those consumers simply spending more money.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
So, what happens if Biden gets the minimum wage to $15 an hour?

Here's were the minimum wage is right now:

state-2019-minimum-wage-map.png


In many states that more than doubles it overnight. Given the current state of business closures for Chinese Disease, will they just decide to close for good in those states? Will employers be able to take that big a wage hit? Will the states with larger portions of the population at minimum wage take a bigger hit?

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How will this affect workers making $15 an hour or more?

My prediction is it is one of many blows that the economy will take causing recovery to grind to a halt... Will Biden blame Trump for that?
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What will happen? In a very short time the economy will reset. Everyone making above min wage will get a raise too. But.......inflation, prices , and housing will also raise at the same rate. In short.....everyone ends up in the same place they are now. Those on the bottom will remain on the bottom and be no better off than they are now.
 
That Min wage increase will really be a big help for the poor living in some place like San Fran. Maybe now they can afford a lid for their cardboard box house and may even be able to shit on a sidewalk on a little better street! Yayyyyyyy!!
 
T. A. Gardner said:
So, what happens if Biden gets the minimum wage to $15 an hour?

Here's were the minimum wage is right now:

state-2019-minimum-wage-map.png


In many states that more than doubles it overnight. Given the current state of business closures for Chinese Disease, will they just decide to close for good in those states? Will employers be able to take that big a wage hit? Will the states with larger portions of the population at minimum wage take a bigger hit?

57211ba052bcd066018bf6b8


How will this affect workers making $15 an hour or more?

My prediction is it is one of many blows that the economy will take causing recovery to grind to a halt... Will Biden blame Trump for that?
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$15/hr minimum wage for Federal employees. He already has it with the stroke of a pen. Obama hiked it to $10, and trump dropped it back down.
 
danielpathos said:
Not by itself; it is the upward pressure on wages that helps. A higher minimum wage simply helps minimum wage labor better afford our first world economy and helps create that demand and generates greater tax revenue. From one perspective, a fifteen dollar an hour minimum wage generates over nine times more federal income tax revenue than does someone making the current minimum wage, plus the additional general tax revenue generated by those consumers simply spending more money.
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So you say.

Cite an example of a boost in minimum wages driving economic improvement.
 
Alt Facts said:
$15/hr minimum wage for Federal employees. He already has it with the stroke of a pen. Obama hiked it to $10, and trump dropped it back down.
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Who told you that?

Trump Signs Order Formalizing 1% Pay Raise for Federal Civilians In 2021

President Trump on Thursday issued an executive order making official his recommendation for a 1% pay raise for civilian federal employees in 2021.

Locality pay for civilians will remain at 2020 levels. Trump had proposed the 1% raise as part of his fiscal 2021 budget.

Federal civilians received an average 3.1% pay increase for 2020.

https://www.govexec.com/pay-benefits/2020/12/trump-signs-order-formalizing-1-pay-raise-federal-civilians-2021/171108/
 
danielpathos said:
Based on marginal propensity to spend and consume. The Poor tend to spend most of their income sooner rather than later. It is a reason why the minimum wage needs to keep up with inflation.
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According to you.

When has a government-mandated wage hike produced the results you claim?

danielpathos said:
California has the largest economy in the Union even with the minimum wage having stagnated for around a decade.
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As you've been told, Calipornia has been raising the minimum wage since 2017, and they lead the nation in poverty, homelessness, and dependence on public assistance.
 
Alt Facts said:
$15/hr minimum wage for Federal employees.
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Nationally, about half of full-time, civilian employees earn salaries of $80,000 per year or more.

Their average salary was about $86,300, according to June 2018 Office of Personnel Management (OPM) data.


https://www.governing.com/archive/federal-worker-salary-income-range-data-by-state.html
 
$15 is a good number for min wage. Let's do it. Especially since we know they won't give another one for 30 more years.
 
Most businesses are well over todays min, so 15 will not be that burdensome. Saying you will just cut workers on not correct. yYu have so many man-hours of work to do. Leaving it undone will hurt business or production. Your option is to slightly increase prices.
 
Michael_Panetta said:
Have you ever worked in a minimum-wage job? Many minimum-wage jobs are found at large corporations like McDonald's and Disney World, which can easily afford to pay their workers significantly more. Many small businesses actually pay their workers more than minimum wage, and the ones that do pay only minimum wage have many employees working under the table anyway. (Think restaurants, family-owned businesses, sweatshops, etc.)

The small businesses that do pay minimum wage will just keep paying it but under the table, and the large corporations that pay it will simply increase their employees' wages without blinking an eye.
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I have worked less than minimum wage jobs. You don't get to dictate market forces. That's fascism, dude. Price controls do not work.
 
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